...or Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
You may hear tones of distaste from me when talking about religion. I want to apologize.. hopefully this will give you a bit more perspective.
Smidge of background:
I was raised in an ultra religious environment. A super zealous mother and extended maternal family.
While I was not brought up in the Old Order Mennonite church, my mother was. The church I was made to attend was a Mennonite church - with electricity.
My father was most absolutely NOT a church member, of any denomination I ever heard about. How they met, married and mated is another blog altogether.
So, there it is. Somewhere in the middle of those two vast divides came I.
That's the basics. I have a lot of theories, ideas and thoughts on it. But in general. I seem to have landed somewhere closer to my father's theological camp.
If I were to be completely honest, I may even fall further afield than he. Possibly because of the total submersion technique imparted by my mother - I develop a bit of a lip curl when it comes to religion and discussion of 'god'. For this I apologize it's a bias on where I come from and how I was raised more than it is a bias on you or your beliefs. -Unless somehow my mother found this blog, in which case sit up an listen, bitch... oh sorry.. I still struggle.
I get a bit of a twitch when I hear people say "I'm not religious.. I'm spiritual".. it's such a taffy remark. Safe. Unobtrusive.
Me? What am I?
I am me. I have adopted some Buddhist beliefs but don't consider myself a Buddhist, I value some Wickan traditions but don't consider myself Wickan. Diesm is very attractive to me but even there, I'm not a diest. There are a million and one ideas I've picked up and put in my basket of beliefs and values but I don't consider myself an expert let a lone a convert in any of them.In the explorations I've done so far theology wise I believe I may be more Agnostic.
I claim only that I don't KNOW.
I do know a few things:
I know I'm alive.
I know I will die.
I know I have reason, thought and feelings that reflect that.
I know this is a big world, surrounded by a bigger solar system surrounded by an even bigger universe.
I know we've only begun exploring it.
I know great minds have historically tested theories on god and come up with nothing.
I know I could be wrong.
I know I'm okay with that.
I know about energy. As a universal life force. It's what separates life from death. It's the active molecules inside of you and me. This is measurable. They are still exploring and finding news ways of measuring it, and defining it. I believe that is what runs our guts, it makes trees grow and wind blow.
Energy = E
Mass = Our Guts
Speed of Light = maximum speed that all energy, matter travel...
Squared = in a nutshell.
I know I love the word GUTS.
But I'm not a physicist. (←I can't even spell that without spellcheck). I'm just an ordinary girl with some wide spread education, and a keen interest in almost everything.
Since moving over here to G+ I've circled a handful of science-type profiles. Smithsonian, National Geographic, NASA a few more that don't jump to the top of my brain waves this instant. But those are my "Big Three".
I love them. I love NASA giving us peeks into Curiousity daily doings, some amazing satellite footage, and excellent posts on some of the stuff they've been studying. I love Smithsonian history stuffs and National Geographic posts some fantastic articles.
One thing that I am having a super hard time dealing with are the religious zealots who troll these waters like something icky and dark. They are angry that theories not including their religious beliefs are being considered by great brains at NASA and SETI. I mean really angry. I wish they would just shut up. If they want to discuss religion go do it in a religious post where other people wish to discuss it. If they are curious to follow what science and technology is revealing, theorizing, discovering and making possible.. then by all means join the fun - but please keep your religion out of it.
In my real life I deal with religion by avoidance and smiling silently. I rarely engage in heated debates, because if there is one thing I've learned from them it's that they really don't get it. Mostly you can see it's a fear of what might happen if they don't believe. I know - I had it too. From the time I was young I was told that if I didn't believe in god and do as I was told ('cause Jesus said so) I would be bound for hell. It took a lot for me to shake that feeling. When I was in my mid twenties I dove into the church head first. meaning I studied everything and anything they could give me to study.
... except the more I read, the more I dug.. .the less it actually made sense.
They have had as much exposure as I have to science, and the reality of their religious texts. And if there is one thing they will hold fast to it's their beliefs. Creationism vs. Evolution is a big one. Whatever. Even the 'suedo church scientist' who try to bridge the gap by saying god created the big bang. I say. Okay, whatever.
Sure when we drill down to what the big bang was caused by and it's found to be this energy force that makes us breath, think and grow... that may well be the god they are referring to.. and they may at the end of the day say 'see I told you so'.. but what they don't want to hear today is that the god of the [insert whatever religious book you like here] is a Myth.
I've read the bible cover to cover - a few times. I read and took notes I discussed with a variety of religious leaders. I really made a sincere attempt at 'believing'... but the more I looked for answers the more I came up with just more questions and that feeling of 'oh, c'mon now...seriously?'.
There is so much aggression, bigotry, religious zeal - throughout the entire old testament women are murdered, mutilated, thrown to rapists, family members beaten, killed, used as shields, sold, bred and raised as property... and all this by the "good guys!". Then you get to the new testament and it's full of faerie stories of god and the devil, some pretty hard to believe miracles.. it just doesn't wash.
Now, I'm not saying it's all bad. It's not. There are some pretty good life guidelines there.
The Big Seven
Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Lust, Wrath, Envy and Lust.. they're basic human traits that EVERY one experiences... it's a good rule of thumb not to let them rule your life. But deadly sins? ... sure you could eat yourself to death and sloth won't get you anywhere... greed creates this feeling of have not which makes for unhappy.. lust...well that gets you into all kinds of trouble.. wrath?.. waste of energy.. Envy .. see greed.
The opposite of this are the virtues..
Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, Humility. (yes I had to look them up). These are all positive learned behaviours that help a person with the vice or natural tendancy of the sins outlined before.
A great blueprint for a life well lived but beat ourself up over a sin here or there? I don't think so.
Don't murder
Don't steal
Don't bear false witness
Don't commit adultery
Honour your parents
No other gods before me
Love thy neighbour
Go to church don't work on Sunday
.... what else?
Oh good gravy.. it's worse than I remember.
Don't covet your neighbour's house, wife, servants, land or ox - in that order. Basically... avoid the ten commandments - they're a fundamentalist wet dream.
I think even Jesus had some opinions on them that weren't very respectful. Let's talk about him for a minute. I do believe he walked this earth... do I think he was a son of god? No more than you or I. Was he smart? Yes. Charismatic? Hell yeah. Clever? Yup. A religious nut? No, but I think his followers were. Did he do everything they say he did? No.
I also don't believe Paul Bunyan created the Great Lakes. I think every story that's passed from generation to generation will have its exaggerations - especially in a two thousand year old cult following based on oppression under an umbrella of love thy neighbour.
Not that there isn't a place for mythology. Fairy tales taught us not to talk to strangers, to help little old ladies, not to be vain, don't judge a book by its cover and always pay the pied piper. There are stories in the bible that do the same. Hurrah.
It's safe to say I don't pray.
I hope, I dream and I accomplish. But I do not pray.
What happens when we die? I've no idea but I'll let you know when I can confirm anything. I'm pretty sure something happens. People have been dying since time began... how bad can it be?
Heaven? Not likely.
Hell? Just as unlikely.
What happens to the "bad guys"? ... *shrugs* no idea.. probably same thing that happens to the 'good guys'.
I do know that good creates happy. Bad creates sad. Knocking someone down may be satisfying in the moment but lifting someone up gives happy that lasts a lot longer... and often has it's own rewards. Call it Karma if you will, but mostly you get a lot further in life minding your manners and respecting people.
If you do all that. and it still doesn't work out for you?.. you have to ask yourself what is it exactly you want to do?.. you really won't get anywhere without an end goal in mind. I don't care how nice you are.
Crime doesn't pay. -really?
Sure it does. I know of a lot of really rich criminals. But who cares? I don't need a religious faction to tell me stealing is not something I want to do. Earning a reward is much more satisfying... and I don't have to live a life looking over my shoulder either. ... but if I found a bagful of money in the woods... it's not likely I'd be looking for the nearest lost and found either.
Buddhism believes that god resides inside each of us and we are all able to achieve that level of consciousness that ties us into the starry dust of the universe. I kind of believe that too. We are each and every one of us a god like entity.
We can achieve great things on our own and incredibly wondrous things collectively.
We can fly! We can soar! We can feed the hungry! We can heal the sick! We know adding fermented grape juice to water turns it to wine - not always a very good wine. We can walk on water! We can explore the stars! We can pay the bills... sometimes.
But we keep slagging around in the muck of religion and the god spectre.. we won't get very far very fast.
Don't be afraid to post your response here.. this is not a science blog celebrating a new discovery on atoms.. this IS a post that broaches the topic.. if you want to spill your GUTS... go for it.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, I am applying to be a foster parent. Part of the application process is a biography on me... with questions I am hard pressed to answer because they ask for a declaration on god/religion/spirituality.
ReplyDeleteHere's the question followed by my answer to the questionnaire:
If you do not affiliate with an organized religion, what are your spiritual beliefs? In what ways are you involved in your spirituality? To what extent does it influence your lifestyle? Do you see volunteer work such as foster care as of your spiritual duty?
I believe in people. I believe that we are on this planet to learn and to help each other, and I am not adverse to any people/group who try to do this, as long as they put the emphasis on helping in a real and concrete way. I do not have a religion, but I like to think that my values come from the best of what religions purport to offer their members. I believe strongly in learning, and in being useful to both family and community.
I do not affiliate with any organized religion, but out of respect to my friends' beliefs - and to explore my own - I have gone to churches, sweat-lodges and other ceremonies. Honestly, I don't care why people do good things - as long as they do them.
I see volunteer work as part of what I owe my community and I try to make that ideal part of my daily life. That's the way of things -- people helping each other.
That's the best that I can do. I searched for a place to believe, but I have never been able to say, "Yes, I believe in god" and mean it wholeheartedly. I look around and I think the world is miraculous -- which is a damn good argument for belief in a deity... I like the idea of one, sometimes... but I am unwilling to commit to a schedule of worship or to justify things in said-maybe-deity's name.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, I don't think it matters if god exists or not. I do not now, nor will I predicate my behaviour on religious dogma. If someone managed to prove to me that god existed tomorrow, I doubt that my behaviour would change much, if at all. Maybe I'd duck when I swear. Who knows?
*applauds*.. I like that they ask that actually.. and I love your answer. :)
ReplyDeleteWe have a few Old Order Mennonite families in this area who are foster parents. It's a tricky situation. A lot of these little kids are coming from very real urban crime areas, a lot of drugs, a lot of exposure to a lot of scary things. They're hardened but then they're fostered into these HUGE families with no electricity and crack of dawn chores .. I'm not sure they could get any further from their reality if they flew around the world lol. I do think it's a good thing- if religion and it's exposure is discussed on some level so the families are aware that they are taking in children very unlike themselves. The success stories are great .. most of them grow up not with the church but they go back to their old lives with a broader perspective on the world and that's a good thing. I don't believe that if those applying stated they wanted to convert the youth or bring them into the fold kind of attitude they should be allowed. But not all mennonites are bad - I swear. lol
What you said about doing things in your community for your community is the way it should be is kind of where my thoughts on the god in each of us comes in... a higher power? meh.. I'm really not sure. There is good in us. The more we apply it the closer to god we become... not the closer to god we are.. but how it's IN US to BE THAT. Sure we goof off and slip up and swear and commit a little bit of all those deadly sins.. but that's the baseness of us. to grow past that we learn to control those instincts and rise above it.
I think church attendance is important for some people it gives them a sense of structure. Sure that's good. What I don't like, don't agree with and what sets my teeth on edge is the assumption that a non church goer is a sinner. I've known evil in the church, I've known good outside the church. Church and a belief does not make someone good or bad - it's just something they do.
Looking inside yourself and seeing ways to improve that's where we evolve. Moving forward ever moving forward. it's the law of survival in the end.
But the thing I really hate is the current debates on religion in schools. Religion should be left to the families. Moral codes are different thing again. But creationism in schools? No. I have a real problem with that. Creationism in sunday school? GO for it. But leave it out of the public school system. We are a multi cultural nation. That is one of our strongest strengths. To start edging religious fervor into our public schools, and government it's a slippery slope to persecution, bigotry and denial of fundamental rights. It restricts research, exploration and advancement.
lol ↑ Blog Part II
I don't understand why religion feels the need to negate science. It has never made any sense to me. I, like you, grew up with an ultra-religious mother. I spent more time at church than I did any other place outside of school and home until I went into serious athletic training and I'm sure I embraced that with such fervor to escape the church. It wasn't that I was trying to escape God...I was trying to escape 'the Church'. The dogma. The control. The rigid belief system. God to me meant everything; everything you could see and everything you couldn't. That was it. Since this was, and still is, my definition, it meant that God was also science__and art and literature and anything, literally that you can and cannot conceive of.
ReplyDeleteThis belief system of mine has never been warmly embraced within the confines of the groups who band together to the exclusion of the rest of the world/universe. It makes them feel, I don't know, less than chosen, I suppose. So what. Get over it. Look around and see what it is you're here to do/learn instead of how you can get over on everyone else. Essentially, grow the fuck up.
And, no, I'm not trying to say that all who are of a religious frame of mind are this way__but many are. I in no way want to offend those who embrace and find comfort in their churches and leave the rest of us alone with respect to walk our own paths. I respect your path for you.
I live in an area where fundamentalist religion is rampant. People preach, bless and curse each other often in the same breath and hourly in the most mundane of settings. And it, much of time, means little to nothing. It's vacuous mouth music they spout by rote. Yes, I'm tired of it. I want us all to respect each other. That's what I want. More than anything.
Forcing one to 'Believe' is NOT the same as fostering 'Belief'. In some it may spark a belief, in others mere indifference and in others it may cause an extreme resentment. As I understand it belief in a higher power is an internal feeling... Reading a book or forcing me to do so, or telling me I am a fool not to believe... Will NOT fucking cause an epiphany!
ReplyDeleteI wish we could plus one people over here.
ReplyDeleteI agree with a lot of what you said.. and something popped into my mind as you said "..not all with a religious frame of mind are this way.." at the risk of silencing those that aren't I'd risk going so far as to say a lot who are shout, argue, pick at (though I believe they see it as 'debate') are. Those that quietly carry on with their own belief patterns, rituals, and so on I'd like to say out number the rest. We just get needled more by the louder abrasives.
I think because those are the ones that might actually believe it least - there's a fear in some of the outcries I think. The loud fundamentalists with signs declaring god said this and god wants that and all who aren't belong in hell. (i.e. the pro lifers, the same sex marriage bigots, the creationists basically, the anti freedom fighters) I think they know they're on thin ice and fear that condoning one thing shines a brighter light on their own weaknesses. Elaborates maybe on the fallacies of their own doctrines a little more than they might be ready for.
yes, I may be putting more words in their mouths than they deserve... but perhaps they might be right.
Imagine same sex marriages lasting a loving lifetime while the church ordained marriages collapse... imagine all those women having the freedom to choose motherhood - would make those dozen sized families that no one can afford to care for seem a lot sillier... imagine if they accepted evolution what would it mean to 'in god's image'? ... Imagine science being right about talking snakes??... if one thing in the bible is false.. then how would they know what's true??.
*holds hand to forehead*.
Fact is. they simply don't. I don't know and neither do they. All we have is what makes sense. The more we learn about the universe and all it's amazingness... the more blown away I am at the possiblities. For me the bible version is simply to narrow minded.
I had a discussion with an ex gf's father about my non belief/atheist/agnostic views. He suggested a pascal's wager sort of response.
ReplyDeletehere is a paraphrased version
"Why not just 'believe'? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain."
"Not true, it is exactly the opposite"
"how do you figure?'
"by your definition god is an all powerful, all knowing, loving, and vengeful God..."
(he wrinkled his nose at the vengeful god part but nodded for me to carry on)
'... so in theory what you are asking me to do is to 'lie' to this god"
"no no no, in going to church and believing you will learn to build your faith"
"I tried that, 20+ years of catholocism"
" catholics are NOT real Christians, you need to find a true church that follows the teaching of the bible"
then because I couldn't resist...
"Do you believe in Mohammed?"
"NO!"
"Why not you have nothing to lose... and EVERYTHING to gain"
(this is his breed of evangelical)
OMG - the "Catholics are not real Christians" Debate gets under my skin like no other.
DeleteAnd I'll be honest for the longest time I did not understand it and then I had the joy of working with a woman who's nickname was Mad Dog. We would go to lunch and debate religion. Me thinking it was healthy and mature sharing of ideas and her attempting (and failing) to convert me to her religion and viewpoint. I told her I was raised Catholic and her then proceeding to tell me that because I did not hold the same "Christian" beliefs as her twisted little church held was going to Hell.
Excuse me?
That ended our lunches.
Because of her, my skin crawls around Christians ... I really do try to be respectful and polite, but I can't ...
This makes me giggle.. I loved your response Craig and good for you. It's unlikely he 'got the rub' though.
DeleteTo bring this back to the Mennonites in this area - there are approximately 30 different factions of the faith and each of them looks to the other as 'unsaved'.. growing up our neighbours were old order - I used to play daily with the kids - we got some crazy assed baseball games going sometimes - ANYway... to them I was 'English' or 'ignorant in the WAY' lol... and my mother would look out the kitchen window and point out their lines and lines and lines of laundry almost every day of the week and scoff.. I'm sure both homes looked smugly at the other knowing that when their time came they would enjoy 'inheriting the earth'..
I was raised in the Church. By that I mean the Roman Catholic church. My father is Mexican American, Roman Catholic. My mother is Anglo Saxon, from the Church of England - Protestant. I remember when I was 14 or 15 that I got into an argument with the priest from my church. He quoted something from the bible about how Man was master of the land, sky and ocean and as master, Man could do whatever the hell he wanted, I disagreed whole heartedly and told him as much. I remember telling my dad this and worried that he was going to yell at me for arguing with the priest ... he didn't. Instead, my dad praised me for speaking my mind and holding fast to my belief. :)
ReplyDeleteWhen I was 13, I experienced a tragedy that took me a long time to get over. I hated God for five years and I mean HATED. I started talking to the Ancient Greek gods - specifically, Athena, Ares, Hades, and Hera. I would ask them for strength and courage to move forward. I'd ask them to end my life. During this time I would talk to Death too. I'd sit outside in the middle of the night and ask Death to take me away.
When I was 16 I went through Catechism. I fought with myself over whether I should go through with it. I didn't believe in the Church ... but I couldn't disappoint my parents. I asked my dad if I had to choose a female saint for my patron saint since I was a girl. He told me no. I smiled. In front of my priest and the Archbishop of Nebraska I was given the name Michael. The archbishop's face when he looked down and realized I was a girl was priceless. LOL
Then I went to college and I took a world religions class. I was in the pursuit of trying to find a religion that fit with my developing world philosophy. I thought about Judaism and Islam ... I considered Hinduism and Daoism ... I contemplated Buddhism ... and then I took a philosophy class and was introduced to existentialism and the Mind/Body Conflict ... Is the mind a separate organ or merely a byproduct of the brain's function? ... Who are we without our mind? ... This blew me away ... What if God was a construct of our mind and if our mind is a construct of our brain and our brain is organic ... then did God really exist? Or was he just all in our head? ...
But my journey wasn't done. I then went into grad school and had a professor who was raised Jewish and became a Buddhist monk. I sat in on his introductory course on Buddhism (for free) and started to dig deeper into Buddhism. And as I did, I realized that a lot of Buddhism beliefs mirror existentialism, which is the philosophy I have chosen to live my life by.
But there is more.
I don't know how many years ago, I started to dig into and learn about my Hispanic/Mexican culture. I started to study heavily and teach myself the language of my ancestors. To understand me, I needed to understand where I came from, what happened to those who came before me. And so I encountered the Aztec gods. When I am struggling and need strength, I offer up jade beads to Tlaloc - an Aztec fertility god. Every time I have given a sacrifice of jade to Tlaloc (jade is his stone) it has rained (his element). This makes me laugh and smile every time.
I am open with my dad about my religious viewpoints or lack of viewpoints as the case may be. He knows I studied Buddhism and that I value those beliefs. He knows that I make offerings to Tlaloc on a regular basis.
In the end all my of searching has yet to prove one way or the other as to whether god is real. And honestly, I don't really care if god exists or not. If s/he does exist, believe me we will have words and good ole Lucy better be prepared to give up the throne. If god doesn't exist, well, so be it - that doesn't change who or what my life path is.
*shrugs*
Wow, this blew me away Caro. Thank you.
DeleteYes, yes, yes.. I found myself nodding as I read (not nodding off - nodding).. and your closing paragraph sums it up so nicely. Thank you.
Existentialism strains my brain so hard... it's like release reality and step off the cliff kind of stuff... and yeah it blows my mind too. But I'm just not smart enough to follow it further and not get fucked up in my head! lol. I prance around the outskirts though.. and that's kind of fun.
It's amazing to me how paths of people's lives take them here and there and it's fearlessness that takes them outside their own boundaries I think. And that crazy joy you get when you step into the unknown armed with nothing but curiousity - what a rush. I saw a little bit of that as you explored your ancestors and their beliefs. For a Roman Catholic your dad is solid. I love that.
There are family members I have that have chosen to lead a life so sheltered they really never test their faith - they say they do.. but the reality of the test is actually looking into the "What if -?" Abyss. That first step can be terrifying.. but then when you land only a few feet from where you started.. and the horizon isn't so different.. you go a little further and pretty soon you're far enough away to look back and see the small chasm you started out in. There is no dragging them (those family members) from it - if I let you through to my facebook account you would see they are covered in posts by aunts and cousins of "Praise god for ---" I'm still sensitive to it that my response is pretty antagonistic. So I keep my distance.
I envy the support you've had in your explorations... ah but that's a deadly sin... ;)
I just think that if you take God out of the equation half of the drama in the world will go away. *shrugs* ... but I think such a thought is blasphemous in some circles ... oh well, I've already accepted the fact that if Heaven and Hell exists, I will be going to the hot and arid place - LOL
DeleteMy dad is very accepting and understanding - I think in some respects, my own journey into understanding my ancestors has helped him to understand himself - if that made any sense ... it is a level we can connect on that none of my other siblings can *shrugs* - it is almost like out own private language ...
As for fearless ... it's more curiosity than anything else - it is in my nature to poke the dragon and see what happens - lol - curiosity killed the cat, but knowledge brought it back.
I have relatives and family friends that are the same way, Robin. My FB page is covered in their Love Jesus BS ... I roll my eyes and skim past it - lol
I remember another discussion with him we were talking about easter, and I said it was a joke, That conversation went about like this...
ReplyDeleteme:"so the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are 1?"
him: "yes"
me: "then easter is NOT a sacrifice"
him: "No, Jesus died for OUR sins, and went to hell, then rose to sit beside the father in heaven."
me: "and they are still all 1 god?"
him:"yes"
me:"then it is not a sacrifice, it is a three day inconvenience, if he knew he would be in heaven in three days there is NO RISK and NO SACRIFICE"
petty argument... yes, but I liked to wind him up lol.
... BUT ... the chocolate at Easter is DiVINE!..
DeleteSeriously.. I view Easter like I do Christmas.. it's a celebration of the change of seasons. SPRING!.. FINALLY! Happy days are here again!
I am finished looking for a belief system, if it is meant to be it will find me.
ReplyDeleteWell -- I'm glad I found you.
Deleteand.... the ad at the bottom of the page is Christain singles lol
ReplyDeleteCLICK IT!... ← don't tell Google I said that!
DeleteI think there are GOOD and BAD to every religion. I just wish a lot of the bad could be weeded out of them, and there would be less fighting to be on the top of the religion food chain. and the pushing of things like anti abortion and anti birth control... if you don't want to have an abortion... DON'T. It is that simple. If you don't want to use birth control again... DON'T note the simplicity of it. I feel the same about euthinasia, if you want to go ahead if you don't want to then... don't. abortions and euthinasia.. if a Dr. doesn't want to perform these services, then ok, they don't have to, but if someone else wants to... let them. If there is 'Hell' to pay for it, it is their 'choice' not yours.
ReplyDeleteTurtle's comment
"The loud fundamentalists with signs declaring god said this and god wants that and all who aren't belong in hell." for some reason made me think of this....
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/population/la-fg-population-matters5-20120729-html,0,5897961.htmlstory
which is just sad.
I am with you on both accounts.. fully and whole heartedly.
DeleteAnd that is one of the saddest articles I've read all day. :(
Bear witness -- pass on the faith and bring joy and understanding (the TRUE way) to others -- most religions have this clause.
ReplyDeleteIf religions could just get rid of that one small thing, life could be bearable between folks who are devout and those who are otherwise persuaded. It is this witnessing that means that my way (which involves keeping all religions at a comfortable distance) is wrong and therefore of no value. It is witnessing which makes it vital that religion exert itself (as if it were a force unto itself) into every discussion which negates or challenges its views. The Status Quo must be maintained -- all things must be processed through the religious lens and found worthy, or it must be refuted.
Doesn't make for a great deal of change.
Well, actually it does. It explains the vast and great number of different 'Christian' belief systems out there, but that's about the size of it.
I was watching a political commentary show lately, and there was a debate between the Republicans and the Democrats from the US regarding what happened during the economic bailout during the first part of Obama's presidency. Finally the show's host shut it down, because (as he said) how can they debate when they can't agree on the facts?
I see talks of Science and Religion to be on the same sad level as the Republican/Democrat debate on that show: the facts are much in contention... and if you can't agree on the facts -- or shut down the 'witnessing' long enough to consider a different perspective -- how can a discussion on the most basic level take place? I think this is why things keep going awry.
To the way I think: Witnessing = Status Quo Maintenance = Views remain static.
Science = Questioning = Movement. They might not have all answers, but they are still searching.
Absolutely.. you know some of the most powerful speakers for a faith - to me - are the silent ones.
ReplyDeleteI think the toughest thing for a person of faith to do is open up and respect a different perspective let alone consider it... because the very nature of faith is believing in what the church tells them.
The trick the church plays is that their god is invisible and can do anything... which in their mind defeats any argument. I suppose it does.. it's one of the greatest cons of all time. It's the emperor's new clothes on a global scale - the only reason it's never ending is that they included the little boy who stood up and said 'but the emperor has no clothes!' and he was persecuted as the fool the rest of the town remained silent to avoid being thought a fool. I'd much sooner be called a fool then be naked in the street thanks.
Churches do do more than start wars around the world, I know they do. I just don't think in this day and age that we need a church to be a peace loving nation. I don't think we need a church to be able to be good, do good and promote good.
and as you said Science exploration at it's very nature is questioning. which of course threatens the faith propaganda.
Then you add to that the bear witness mandate and you have a recipe for close minded faith pushers.
I knew there was a reason I like you guys. "Is there a god?" (should I have capitalized that?). I think the answer is irrelevant to everything important. Let me explain.
ReplyDeleteAll of the great religions seem to come to similar conclusions, at least insofar as appropriate behavior is concerned. "Do unto others . . . " "Love thy (why don't we say "thy" more often?) neighbor as . . . (this was hard for the 10 years there was a Rottweiler next door)". "Walk a mile on my paws." "An eye for an eye." Etc. Etc. In short, "Empathize!" Back to empathy in a moment (well, maybe more than a moment, but we're talking about the meaning of life here.)
In college, my sidekick took political theory courses from the chairman of the religion department. St. Augustine and St. Thomas, you guys rock. But you have to admit, that guy Machiavelli is a hoot. More to the point, my sidekick showed up (occasionally) for 8 o'clock European intellectual history lectures by a guy (young, tall, dark, handsome, bearded - with a line of coeds outside his office every day to discuss uh, "how am I doing in your course, Dr. Kirkland?") who grew up in Arkansas and was supposed to be a Baptist minister except he went astray but who nonetheless retained the rhetorical skills associated with the path not taken (a poetic reference for those of you so inclined).
May I digress for a moment? By now, you have noticed that the preceding paragraphs contain so many parenthetical comments that it's nearly impossible to follow the narrative. This is intentional on my part. First, it forces you to read carefully. There will be no skimming, because this is a serious subject. Second, this comment is mine, and you're more likely to find the parentheticals interesting than the religious theory. Third, I might have had too much to drink.
Back to empathy. But first, a bit more about Dr. Kirkland and European intellectual history. As with all great college courses, there were term papers assigned. One (which earned an A, I might add) compared Rousseau (a Romantic, by all reports) and Camus (an Existentialist by all accounts). I mention existentialism because someone else did. Anyway, in one of his Discourses, Rousseau noticed that a horse, upon coming upon a dead horse, tended to shy. Camus asserted in "The Rebel" that there are times when one must kill a bad guy, But, he said, if you need to kill a bad guy, you must do so by throwing yourself (and your bomb, or whatnot) beneath the bad guy's chariot. The point being that if you renounce his life, you must renounce your own. Get it? Empathy. Interesting that secular philosophers (frankly, I don't remember what Rousseau's religious views were, but Camus was pretty certain there is no god) end up in the same place as religious ones.
Which brings me to my point. Empathy seems to be an inherent characteristic of all those beings who are imbued with some degree of control or choice over their circumstances. I don't care what the source of this characteristic is. It is sufficient that empathy provides a premise upon which to base one's behavior and relationship to the world and all the things within it. Of course, not everyone will agree about how best to implement their empathetic quality. So the debate will continue even after the rest of you adopt my view as your own.
A final note. It makes no sense that identical lives lead either to sunshine or fire based on whether the livers (as in those who live, not the abdominal organ) define themselves as deists or not. I wouldn't do that to anyone, so I trust that neither would an empathetic spirit named Allah, God, Jehovah, Fido or whatever.
Adogs.
I have a sudden urge to cross stitch your entire comment into a wall hanging...
DeleteMake two . . .
DeleteAdogs. I like it. 8=8
ReplyDelete*leaves a practical offering of milkbones*
OMG!
ReplyDeleteThis was a long blog, with log comments.
I read it the way I read the Bible--skimming for the good parts. I probably miss a lot that way.
I know it's the religious track(ed) that rails on and on it's awesome...
DeleteWhat a great blog. What great comments. I was going to comment but realized I have so much to say that I may do a blog on this myself. I was also raised in an extremely fundamental Christian household/school. (Just found these Turtle blogs...most excellent. Too bad I'm about a year late...)
ReplyDelete